Official Luthiers Forum!

So, it seems that being a luthier is as easy as riding a bike.

_________________
We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at guitars.

Aint that the truth though! The harder you go the more it clears up the head too



Bwahahahahah! Nice one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaxRQh03BOw

Real Bikes. None of that silly Aluminium (Aloooonimum as some say).

Lol. They speak just as what I does do.

My first ten speed was a 1967 Sears made by Puch in Austria. It is what is called a 'gas pipe' lugged frame....thick, welded steel tubing. It was heavy for a 'lightweight', but it handled great. I once rode about 10 miles without touching the handlebars...and this was in hilly country. I still have the frame and most of the components, and I plan on restoring it. I want to give it a second repaint, going back the original gold color.

There is steel and then there's steel:

http://www.totalcycling.com/en/Colnago-Master-X-Light---AD11/m-17163.aspx

My Scott weighs 13.84 pounds complete including pedals, but this Colnago with a lightweight carbon fiber fork would still weigh less than 16 pounds with the same components.


I have not been that impressed with the aluminum frame bikes I have ridden. IMHO, a lightweight carbon fiber frame is a different story.

_________________
John

I am guessing you guys must make a ton of money making guitars... I don't really have much to spend on bikes and some of them can be ridiculously expensive.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Repairing guitars and selling wood, mainly.
Like many high tech items, the price on those 'latest and greatest' bikes plummets when the 'next new thing' comes out.
The latest thing with bikes is more aerodynamic frames....something I doubt would make much difference in the hills where I ride.
That Scott frame was 5 years old when I found it on Ebay, and the price was less than 20% of the price it was when new.
In addition, it helps when you can build your own bikes. I have built many wheels for a fraction of the asking price for a new set.

_________________
John

Maybe Somogyi, Kevin Ryan, or Traggout and the like do. Seems like it would be hard not to be rolling in the dough at their prices. I could live comfortably and then some at two guitars a year at Somogyi's prices...

As for it being easy, well, if I can do it...

That's been my ride for the last 14 years. Carbon fork. It's been up Alp d'Huez, the Glandon, the Galibier and the Tourmalet among others(with much agony). An absolutely wonderful machine although my TSX Marinoni was a better descender.

I was thinking about a steel fork to see if that would make a difference going downhill but now I'm too old to climb that stuff anymore.

Do you like carbon better than steel John?

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I could use a better bike though, mine is about the worst bike you can get. People say it takes years to learn to build a wheel but for me that's not hard. Google the lacing pattern, find the right spoke and it's a snap, did it right the first time in fact without any mentorship or anything but it might be because I have good mechanical skills. Told one guy that I could build a wheel right the first time and he had a hard time believing that.

It helps because I can install dynamo hubs so I don't have to put up with batteries.

Since I'm just about to immigrate to the US there's no point upgrading my bike.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

The main thing with stability is to have the right amount of offset (or rake) for the frame geometry.


I like it when climbing
I probably won't have a clear answer until I build a steel-frame bike with modern lightweight components. I have most of the parts to build a sub-16 pound bike. That is lighter than a lot of new carbon frame bikes with clinchers. The frame is a no-name Ebay special that was painted with red oxide spray paint. It's a very nice, double-butted frame that has an Italian BB. I Have scoured the Internet trying to figure out who made it, but so far, no luck.

* = verified weight in grams

Frame 1801* (3.97 lbs) 1796 2/17/14 (partial removal of red paint)
Fork, LOOK 307*
Headset: FSA Orbit, FSA expander 122*
Crank: Spidel, 42T 477*
Bottom Bracket: American Classic Titanium 157*
Crank bolts w/ washers (Campy) 31*
Derailleur: SunTour Cyclone Mark-II GT (3500) 171*
Shift lever: Campy 55*
Brake levers: Weinmann short, no hoods 133*
Cables ~ 164
Brake calipers Dia Compe 400 silver 229 G*
Chain: Nashbar 9-speed 288* (total length) trimmed to 110 links = 273
Cassette: SRAM PG950 9-speed Cassette 11-28 246*
Handlebars: No Name 38 cm 245*
Handlebar tape Benotto Cello 34*
Handlebar end plugs Lizard Skins 4*
Stem: ~ 150
Spacers: ~ 20
Seatpost: American Classic 240mm 200*
Campy seat post binder bolt published weight = 10
Saddle: Nashbar R2 Saddle 212*
Wheels, Performance rims, Circus Monkey hubs: 1223*
Tires: Vittoria Rally tires 620*
Skewers: Nashbar Bolt-On Skewers 65*
Pedals: Time RXS 244*

Total = 7188 grams (15.85 lbs)

This is a combination of old (friction downtube shifter, square taper crank) and new (lightweight hubs and cassette). I am not a big fan of carbon handlebars, stem, or rims.



With the LED lights that are cheap and available today, battery life is no longer an issue. The tail lights that I use take AAA batteries, and they seem to last forever.

_________________
John

Very cool! This is more fun than talking guitars.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

What if you turn your bandsaw into a bicycle?

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Or a bicycle into a bandsaw. Combine the two, a bicycle that cuts wood and a bandsaw that gets you from a to b.
How did we get into this fine mess?

I thought my Fenwick boron flyrod was pretty dang good at shooting line, but still prefer the old time feel of bamboo...
Anyone shoot film and scan the negatives? I have a Mamiya 6 and really love the scans of a 6x6 negative. Even better is my old '31 Voigtlander Inos II. Negatives are 6X9cm and the scans are around 400mb!
Oh, wrong forum...

For decades, I have dreamed about building a wooden bicycle, but it probably would not look much like these:

http://www.renovobikes.com/

It seems that all the modern wood bicycles are more about looks than performance. The types of wood used seem strange to me...outside of the possibility that they were chosen for appearance.

_________________
John

There are some cool bikes being made out of bamboo these days.
Your right about the fork rake John. The beauty of racing on steel forks (yes I'm that old) was each new frame I could test ride and tweak the fork rake so it cornered just like I wanted it to. Frame geometry and tires are what make a bike do what you want it to. Not the frame materials. Except for climbing.

I often tell myself when working on instruments, to trust the good musicians. If they hear or feel something in an instrument it's best to pay attention and try not to second guess them, even though they may not be able to build or work on an instrument themselves. The first race of each season I new right away what specifications of frame geometry the builder had gotten right or wrong. Dimensions that were critical to me, (bottom bracket height within a 1/16" for example) some frame builders just didn't think I would notice. Until I told them it was high or low without even having to measure.

That is the essence of a good repairman. Having the skill is one thing, but getting on the same wavelength with the player is another level.
'Can you lower the action?'
'Let me see you play'.
'My guitar feels stiff.'
'Which hand?'

_________________
John

I am a retired Orthopaedist and it has always amazed me how the human body can sense incredibly small adjustments in something it is used to.

I could certainly feel even a 1/16" change in seat height immediately and I remember back in my racing days in the 80's a kid that was a Cat II came in with disabling knee pain that prevented him from riding.

That was in the days of fixed cleats and I think I rotated his just a few degrees on the bad side and the pain instantly went away and never came back.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Steve, I recall us talking about heating and cooling options for your new shop. Have you completed those upgrades yet?

I used to ride a lot. Today I have a Rans Velocity recumbent...bought it about ten years ago.

I know Randy Schlitter, the owner of Rans bicyles. He also made airplanes called Rans....a total genius this guy. I put my propellers on his planes. We talked a number of times about making composite bicycle frames based on one of the molding process I invented for propellers. They would of had a monocoque structure for the wheels and frame. I suppose we were both pretty absorbed into what we were each currently doing because the talks never went anywhere. It would have been a pretty interesting project doing the first one. They would have been very light and stiff.

I'd done a number of research projects for various aerospace companies by then...co-molding various metal interface points into composite structures. That experience would have come in very handy although there certainly would have numerous specific challenges for each hardware point.

Now...it makes me sleepy just thinking about it.

_________________
I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

That's an important part of it. The best thing I've seen on bicycle "stability" is this: http://home.phys.ntnu.no/brukdef/undervisning/tfy4145/diverse/UnridableBicycle.pdf ("Physics Today" 1970) . But there's "stability", and then there's "handling". In racing bike design, fast response, and low weight are usually more highly prized than "stability". You can't maximize all three.

I spent 15 years working for Bontrager Cycles, doing frame building, painting, research, and testing. I switched to guitar work shortly after the company was purchased by Trek in 1995. As the company evolved in the late 80's and early 90's, the emphasis became strictly "performance". The welded steel frames (road and mountain) that the company was making in 1995 were lighter and stronger than any steel lugged or filet-brazed frame. They were stronger and tougher than the aluminum and carbon frames of the day. (I don't recall the exact weights of the road frames, but by 1991, the heavier mountain frames weighed 3.8 pounds). The company also made some titanium frames, and a variety of components made of steel, carbon fiber, and several aluminum alloys, including aluminum-lithium composites. I enjoyed being part of the effort to build efficient bikes. I also enjoyed the earlier days when we made racing eye-candy in the European lugged-frame tradition. (It was analysis of the heat-affected zone in lugged-frame construction that led to welded frames.)

I don't know what time period you're talking about. "Kestrel" made a big splash with carbon fiber monocoque frames around 1986. These were bladder pressurized, external mold monocoques (100 psi?).